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October 05, 2006

Comments

Thomas Williams

The fighting before was tribal in nature. They unify against a common foe, us. They are still fighting over amongst themselves; but we are still a target as we are the foreigners there. Until we disarm the militias and make some things plain (as in get your stuff together and secure your country) to the elected government. If they can't get it together in a time limit known only to the absolute head of the government and the American General staff and the Ambassador, we should leave. Iran will move in and get part of the country and Syria will probably get some of the other with the Kurds getting the North. This is a worst case scenario; but, unless we really make some strides soon I don't see anything else happenning.

Tom

fcc

"So is that just you or is it the new right-wing position?"

Masood,

Only if that is what you call the truth now.

Thomas,

I would agree with your assessment and I must say, we don't know that is not what is going on behind the scenes. We must be very firm with the new government and make it clear that they must take on more and more of the daily operations and begin securing their nation in a timely manner. We must deal with government leaders exclusively so that the people see them as legitimate. However, the date and timeline must remain classified and not given to the world as a target. My understanding from soldiers I have contact with is that great strides have been made in government and infrastructure.
Hopefully, something like this is taking place and will not be divulged as a political ploy.

Bob

Somehow I think something is getting lost in translation from one mind to another here. It seems to me that some are assuming the discussion is about the violence that has been ongoing in that region for centuries and millenia, while others are assuming the dsicussion is about what has happened since our invasion in Iraq. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here....

Masood

"...we don't know that is not what is going on behind the scenes. We must be very firm with the new government and make it clear that they must take on more and more of the daily operations and begin securing their nation in a timely manner."

You may only succeed in fooling the most stupid with your comments.

What you say basically means: "We have created a mess because of our complete lack of understanding of the situation in Iraq and we are now looking to make a quick exit. O (non-existent) govt. of Iraq, please step in and save our behinds".

-Masood

Bev

Beautiful!

fcc, you succeed in fooling only the most stupid with your comments.

fcc

Bev,

No, obviously not.

You and Masood keep us up to date next time the prez decides to blow up leevies, fly planes into buildings or organizes a new terrorist group. We need to be kept up to date on those breaking details.

Bev

George W. Bush has succeeded in fooling only the most stupid.

Gene

"We must be very firm with the new government and make it clear"

Fcc

Do you think maybe just a LITTLE firmer than we have been with N. Korea? Judging by todays events, I doubt they slowed at any point after signing the treaty with Clinton. Anyone have a clue why we bother with treaties with nations like N. Korea? It seems to be more for politics than anything else. The International community has faltered once again. We obviously have never learned anything from history.

BAWDYSCOT

Mike,

The Iraqi Kurds are not stting off bombs in Turkey, Turkish Kurds are. The Iraqi Kurds are sitting pretty where they are and would do nothing to mess it up. The U.S. is backing the Iraqi Kurds and would upset the Americans if they started fighting with their brethren.

Thomas Williams

Bawdy,
Very astute observation.


Tom

fcc

"Anyone have a clue why we bother with treaties with nations like N. Korea?"

With folks like N. Korea, I have not the faintest idea. I would say the majority of nations would honor a treaty, unfortunately the ones with nutso leaders like N Korea, Iran, Syria and previously Iraq are the ones we need to cooperate the most. I certainly hope we do not waste time on a treaty with Iran. They use force and intimidation to get what they want and force and intimidation is the only thing they really do understand. It is quite unfortunate but a reality.

Mike

Turkey sees them as "Kurds" and has refused the U.S. access to Iraq via Turkey for the reason they fear the founding of a Kurdistan Republic...named after the revolutionary group. Turkey has for years been very prejudced toward the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey and has threatened invasion.

Masood and Bev, et al... Tribal caos, national caos and middle-east caos have been "yes" Tom going on for a long time... Prof. Said, an old International Service professor of mine became famous with the "conceptual framework theory"...you must see the actions and conditions and culture that exist within the "framework" of a nation and region to "understand it"... it's values and it's reason d'tre...
No uniting element except for religion exist in the Middle East... the totalitarian personalities that have ruled the area extend from religious roots and not democratic roots or representative roots except in a tribal setting.

Unless we "learn from history we will repeat it"! Saddam fit the role and culture of the region... and had control. We removed him and are attempting to establish a "democratic federal republic"? This effort is not consistant with the history of Iraq or the Middle East. An Ayatollah (such as Iran) a dictator ...etc... who ever can keep the infrastructure running is going to be acceptable if they are also acceptable to the Imam's who run the local mosque.

We are attempting to reattach a head to the shoulders and neck of a body that is going to reject it because the head is not compatable to the body... political dynamics and biological science have laws that govern them...

To some it it obvious to others (the really out-to-lunch crowd GWB,Inc it isnt' so obvious?

GwB would say "Why do they reject us and not greet us with open arms and flags like France did in WWII"? We freed them? Duh George!

BAWDYSCOT

fcc,

Iranians used more cunning and guile than actual force unlike ourselves.

Mike,

The Iraqi Kurds already have "Welcome to Kurdistan" sign in their territory. Also, Iran has a problem with Kurds too.

Mike

Bawdy... so there you have it! No disagreement here...

csm

This seemed like an appropriate place to post this:

Study estimates 655,000 Iraqi deaths due to invasion: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061011/ts_nm/iraq_deaths_dc_1

That is the saddest part of the whole Iraq mess. And that is over and above the number who would have died without any US action at all. Here is a quote from the above: "We estimate that as a consequence of the coalition invasion of March 18, 2003, about 655,000 Iraqis have died above the number that would be expected in a non-conflict situation," said Gilbert Burnham of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in the United States.

Gene

I was waiting on this one. Actually that number has been proven to be fradulent. So much for polls in Iraq.

"An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000. And at least one expert was skeptical of the new findings.

The work updates an earlier Johns Hopkins study -- that one was released just before the November 2004 presidential election. At the time, the lead researcher, Les Roberts of Hopkins, said the timing was deliberate. Many of the same researchers were involved in the latest estimate.

They're almost certainly way too high," said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 election.

"This is not analysis, this is politics," Cordesman said."


Cordesman is 100% correct. EVERYTHING is about politics at this stage in the game. I wonder if they included the number of Irqis Saddam buried alive?

derF

It might be interesting to note that Anthony Cordesman is also a national security analyst for ABC.

BAWDYSCOT

Since invading Iraq was a mistake of the tallest order, whether 655,000 or 50,000 or five people is the correct number, I fail to see the difference, they were ALL needless.

Masood

An excerpt from the report prepared by Consumers for Peace.org with the advice of Karen Parker, http://www.traprockpeace.org/war_crimes_iraq_101006.pdf

"At the point when the Iraqi nationa military forces surrendered or were subdued, the humanitarian law norms governing military occupation automatically came into force. They will stay in force, according to Article 2 of each of the four Geneva Conventions of 1949 (usually referred to as Common Article 2) as long as the U.S. has a military presence in Iraq and has objective authority over its presence there. Many of the rules for occupying forces are found in Articles 42-56 of the Hague Regulations and most of Geneva Convention IV: these rules address both the obligations imposed upon occupying powers as well as the numerous rights of occupied people.

A major obligation of occupying powers is that it must restore and maintain, as far as possible, public order and safety. An occupying power must also respect the fundamental human rights of the country’s inhabitants, including refugees and other non-citizens. One duty under the concept of public safety is the fundamental duty of an Occupying Power to ensure the life, health and safety of the civilian population under its control. Because of this rule the U.S. is obligated:

• to ensure that basic human needs—food, water, health care —are
available to all Iraqi people;
• to provide for the physical security of all Iraqi people; and
• to meet these responsibilities without using any military tactics or weapons prohibited by international law.

One area where the international agencies have been especially harsh in assessing U.S. violations as an Occupying Power relates to its obligation to provide adequate food and to not use food as a weapon of war. In Particular, Article 54 of Protocol Additional I provides: “It is…prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless…objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population such as food-stuffs, agricultural areas for the production of food-stuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works.”12 The United Nations Special Rapporteur on the right to food, Jean Ziegler (Switzerland), cites violations of Article 54 of Protocol Additional I in Tall Afar, Fallujah and a number of other locations in Iraq 87; 96)."

Mike

Masood I totally support the Geneva Convention as it stands and my country does as well. How resources are manipulated on the ground are often those interested in makeing money in the black market...Iraqi citizens! Food, resources by the billions in aid have gone down the Iraqi rat hole because of those lining their pockets in Iraq... construction by Iraqi companies (e.g.Police Training Center) have been total disasters. Reconstruction of water lines (water supplies), sewage, and oil transport have been sabotaged by warring religious selots and terrorists. Under those conditions, yes problems arise for an Occupation Force... the people of Iraq are now asked to take the government into their own hands, their defense into their own hands, and begin to run their own country. Personally I hope we withdraw asap. It is the only way for the warring religious factions settle their issues..I am sure when we do more than a few Sunni Muslims will be killed, Shia hatrid is stong. The Kurds will become vulnerable to Iran and Turkey... and possibly at worst Iraq might disappear into a fractured nation of it's former self... but that may be the only way stability will evolve.

csm

Gee, we have to now wait for stability to evolve now... And to think, Iraq had been stable for quite some time before W bumbled his way over there and started killing Iraqis...

fcc

CSM you think pulotonium is stable. That explains why every comment is DNC propaganda.

csm

What the fuck you are talking about fcc?

BAWDYSCOT

All hail king fcc and his verbal diarrhea!

Gene

fcc,

Cute....

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