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March 30, 2005

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Eric W

Hey John, I see you're still at it. Hope you still get research done!

soph

You say that we are not necessarily a virus... Yet that is from our point of view - we are naturally going to be biased and think of ourselves as more 'righteous' than a virus or bacteria; well it is in our very nature to want to survive and as we have evolved to form attachments to each other in terms of friends and family which has only come about because a complex system like ours needs many resources and help. Emotion and sentimentality has evolved to bind us more strongly, so through times of hardship we support each other and thus have a greater chance of survival. What vexes me about people is them thinking that this survival tactic of homo sapiens acquired through natural selection somehow makes us much better and more worthy than viruses. Yet, relatively speaking, we are just a very large virus/bacteria - I mean for gods sake we and every other life form bloody evolved from a virus. We devour animals and plants - as a virus might invade and kill a host - except we kill our host in one swoop instead of days of attacking blood cells and weakening the animal. We have just become an extremely virilent and large virus - and because we our part of it, we can't see the wood for the trees. People don't want to see it, because its upsetting to know the raw, harsh truth of the matter, which is that the world is a chaotic fight for survival for every living thing. There is no peace of mind. You talk of equilibrium of the planet - but actually going back far before humans evolved the planet often oscillated - things having often to be adjusted within the ecosystem - Gaia is a constant battle of Earth itself trying to survive - and the living things on it are only its tools. Over-population often causes outbreaks of illness and so again the 'virus' reduces the population - in cases viruses are of more benefit than humans. When you try to see the world from an objective point of view, humans are just a tiny branch of evolution and we have evolved to take advantage of our environment and use resources like any virus, mammal or fish. Its just that like the ebola virus, which being an emergent virus, is too violent with its host and devours the cells and organs too quickly and so kills the host before it can infect others.... Isn't this what humans are essentially doing to our planet? Like the ebola, we shoot ourselves in the foot - we should take note of what the common cold has evolved to do which is to be less aggressive - the only way to survive and 'get our own way' in the end is through patience, reasoning, through respect of our host (earth) and working with it - as the only way a living thing can benefit is by benefitting its host as it depends on it to survive. The funny thing about humans is that our mind has evolved to such an extent that we have thought up solutions to more survival problems that go beyond basic - advanced technology and medicine - we prolong life, treat illness, we are essentially for the first time in earths history moulding nature to suit our emotions. our comfort, our desires, our sentimentality. Being a human, I obviously like the advancement of tech and medicine as we have the chance to survive longer and sometimes feel less pain. After all nature is harsh and we can soften its blow through these inventions. This benefits our conscious minds and the short term survival of humans. But when people live longer through intervention there is overpopulation ( but does the Pill and condoms then balance this out?? - I have wondered if because man is natural - everything man produces or invents is also??) and people surviving genetic faults and cancer - could they be actually ( when one removes sentimentality) making the gene pool even more 'dirty' - so even more people in the future suffer due to an increase in faulty DNA? It seems that even though we remedy a short term problem could we be causing more? - Are we being kind to be cruel???? Humans are very vain and we always like to think the best of ourselves ( which is why religion is so prevelant - especially when there is pain and suffering as it offers a last hope). We put ourselves on a pedestal as it gives us the strength to carry on. We need to learn to be more humble - we should renounce religion with its false delusions of grandeur - of an imagined perfection. When has anything ever been perfect in the 35 billion years of this earth?? or in the universe which seems fast, furious and wrought with power, fire, force and danger! All sorts of odd creatures have manifested and died out again and again - just as we will ( we should take advantage of this accident of acute self-awareness and intelligence that (most) humans possess) and enjoy the earth, the universe wherever we may be!! We are certainly nothing special -the closer one looks at the complexity and strangeness of other creatures the more you realise. Our brain size has been our most successful tool for survival - for thinking our way out of getting eaten or finding food and shelter. Other creatures have evolved just as successful survival skills - one ant colony is like a human being shattered into its individual cells. Long term they'll probably last longer than humans. We might be clever, but we're vulnerable-complex systems that need resources, shelter, communities, healthcare, education: stability. Our impressionable brains can also become corrupted very easily by dangerous views. Open-mindedness is something that takes education - the more you know about science, geography, history etc - the more you realise that things are not black and white - things can't be labbelled as good or bad as such - it is the mind that tries to do that out of laziness and a want of simplicity. This is where lack of education mixed with a religious doctrine are lethal. As Dawkins says that is itself a virus. The meaning of human life is easy to fathom - just look at the meaning of a viruses life - there is no meaning - it has no ultimate direction or goal, just the drive to infect, survive and pass on genetic material. The only thing we have that is worth anything is our ability to think, we are lucky enough through the millions of years of our evolution to own a brain complex enough to be self-aware and be able to reason and think and create - it is that which we should embrace. Sex education needs to be more informative and more open as well. Lack of communication in this area leads to confusion and ignorance which leads to pure instinct with no reason - leading to std infections and pregnancy. Also when woman aren't given a positive view of themselves and their sexuality - a lack of self-confidence grows and in many religious cultures subservience and lack of respect leads to rape and sex where women don't have the confidence to insist on a condom or men don't have the education to know they should use one. We shouldnt be ashamed of the body - it supports our mind and it needs to be healthy and balanced in order to maintain a healthy mentality.

Lukas

I agree with you. Yet even though we may be able to think we haven't escaped our animality, we are free to think yet most of our 'thoughts' seem to be based around our survival. We don't stop and question things enough. One may fall in love but he'll not question what really is happening, he's tricked by nature because our instincs want us to reproduce. Then they use their thinking to write poetry, songs and so on about love never realizing that what is happening to them. They try to label everything as if thought it ought work for them alone, so instead love becomes 'a magical experience' instead of yearning to put your meat in a hole of some woman and raise another stupid meaningless bastards, religion is created as well as morality and so on.

Antonio José Brizida Miranda

Hello

Sometimes I have some Tories and every body think am creasy, today as I was driving around the city and one thing come in to my mind “WE ARE A VIRUS”.
We build big cities and destroy every thing around us; we eat as much as we can. If you think the earth as a cancer in the universe, we can be the cancer cells; our only objective is to destroy all around us and wend it is over we all gone die.
I really do not know why I have this thoughts bus it seems I not the only one.
Sorry about my English.

Legacy

In regards to humans being a virus. This idea is short thought and lacking knowledge. Viruses are microorganisms consisting of DNA and RNA molecules wrapped in a protective coating of proteins. Viruses are the most PRIMITIVE form of life. THEY DEPEND ON OTHER LIVING CELLS FOR THEIR REPRODUCTION AND GROWTH.
By putting humans in such a category, would be minimizing the true uncontrollable nature of homo-sapiens.
Viruses do not have choices, they do what there DNA tells them. They also use other cells to reproduce.
Humans on the other hand, are able to control there own destiny and have been systematically set for survival by mating with its own kind to reproduce.
We humans are FAR more advanced, in every way.
Humans in fact run the show on this tiny planet. We do what we want, when we want. Yes survival is the on going drive for us, but we have found a way to control such a craving. And now we find ourselves loosing sight of the beauty of life and all its splendor.
Humans follow a different kind of survival, a survival of power and control. Its been this way ever since the beginning of time for the humans. Those with the most control are the ones who have manipulated and directed a system that we see now. A system that has over stepped its boundaries, and will be dealt with in a manner that will send its manipulators to a realm of hate. Hate that all mankind will spit upon for decades.
Wars and blood lust have been the ongoing way of humans. False witness and false faith have been the ongoing way of humans. Control of a population of submissive unrightouse humans has been the way.
We humans are... shall we say, Copy Cats. We have been looking to other species, to learn of our environments. We take what those species know and use it for our own survival. We conduct what we can to survive.
I must make this shorter then expected, so I will just go to my final thoughts.
There is a 'collection' of humans on this planet that have the seed of true stability, a stability where we humans rid ourselves of the religious warmongering infidels that have been raping the nature from this beautiful planet. This collection of humans... yes they know who they are, they are those who see the ongoing system as nothing more then a childish endeavor to control those who want to hear false faith and false dreams of prosperity, to control those who are afraid of life and death. Oh, those poor unknowledgable humans... for you will be the first of mankind to loose your lineage on this beautiful planet.
Wars and the ongoing system of things show the 'collection' that there is many who will follow the on going sytem to the end. But, will not prevail... for the diminishing of your kind is at hand.

R. Lukyanenko (chewbacca)

Hello!
This is the first place where i see people talking about "Humans as a virus". I`ve had this kind of thoughts for some time now. I agree that we might be a virus. I`d like to comment previous man who put his message here "Antonio José Brizida Miranda" you wrote "Viruses do not have choices, they do what there DNA tells them." i think Humanity doesn`t have choices either! Our only Objective aim is to increase our population! One man may think he has a choice, but what can he do against his nature, his way of existence? Every man wants to evolve, its in our nature, all of us want to make existence on this planet better for our selves, but by doing this we destroy earth.In my opinion This process is unstoppable and We can`t do nothing about it. DNA that tells us to do something is our INSTINCTS, and we do not have a choice! But its very interesting that we understand that our existence is not positive thing, maybe people who do accept this idea, are some kind of a mistake or malfunction of virus called humanity?

R. Lukyanenko (chewbacca)

Ups.. sorry the person i`ve commented was "Legacy", not "Antonio José Brizida Miranda" !

Munk

a virus.....it is true that we do share come common behavioral characteristics with virus, we are in fact not an actual virus. in fact, there are many other organisms that have similar characteristics as humans. Meerkats live in a Monarchy of sorts, yet they control their own population and create an equilibrium. Yet still, they will fight amongst eachother for territorial reasons just as we fight another country for whatever reasons (usually religious). humans have the one thing that seperates us completely from any other organism on this planet, the imagination. we are able to create and invent nearly at will. we can comprise various ideas that require no instinctive reasoning. we entertain ourselves through various complex means far more advanced then any other living organism on this planet. i feel that the main factor for this was the opposable thumb. because of that we were able to think a little more which probably caused the evolution of the brain. but if you know anything about it, you know that we are 'not' the most complex organism on this planet, not even our brain is the most complex. in fact, its our simplicity that makes us live the way we live, in a world almost devoid of any instinctual effort outside of procreation. realizing that while we do seem to have control of this planet, many organisms do contain more genomes and more complex DNA structures. that also raises a question from me : "are we a final stage of evolution, of just a stepping stone on an endless path towards something so complex in structure and function that it goes beyond our mental comprehension?"

Jode

In August 2007 I also had a sudden revelation that that at some point in our world history, probably originating in Europe (could pinpoint it better if were better with world history), a viral form of human species came into existence, multiplied, and is now thriving as it continues to spread. It's whole purpose is to propagate and survive - feeding on it's host - the Earth. Any other human form (I'll call a non-virus human form) was systematically and efficiently obliterated. So, for example, when the virus spread to North America, the North American Indians and their antiviral beliefs and lifestyles were attacked and annihilated. They were not a part of this virus, as they had lived on the planet in a healthy state and balance for thousands of years. The virus is relatively new on the planet and has spread rapidly. You and I are the cells of the virus -as we do it's virus thing - which is consuming, consuming, and consuming. We are conditioned from birth to believe that our society is good and doing good things - as it systematically spreads, consumes and destroys our host. We are conditioned to believe in this economy of capitalism and economic growth - vital to the survival of the virus. The virus panics when growth becomes slow, such as what is happening now. Remember back a few decades when there was a movement in this country for zero population growth? I recently looked into this and learned that the movement was effectively ended. Such a movement is anti-virus - therefore it must be terminated. As we are in the latter stages of consuming the Earth, we are looking outward - into space, and will continue to spread and multiply - certainly if at all possible. The stage is being set for at least token virus cells to take residence outside the planet.

I could go on. I am very interested in talking with others who have had this same 'revelation' and thoughts.

Chris

Humans are the supreme virus. Containing the same DNA found in viruses, one can only fathom the evolution of our species. A virus is nothing more than a survivalist. A Republican. Do for yourself, not wait for someone to do for you.
Technically nothing like a virus, humans survive on the same principle. 'Whats best for me?'. Coexistence is inate in humans as is viral determination. Its a balance of millions of years viral contact with homo sapians well bred into us.
The power of thought however conceals viral tendencies. Motives. Desires and goals. But the truth be evident, all creatures are a virus in some for or another. Survival requires destruction of other life forms period. Nothing lives without destroying. If you think humans are a virus, then what possibly could be a virus to say the population of plankton or quill? Another animal. Therefore, this species method of survival is not coexisting with the planet, but mass reproduction in order to survive death rate. Another form of viral activity. Humans are not the only animal that can be viewed as a virus, all animals can be viewed as a form of virus. Grazing animals will eat till food supply is gone. Are they not a virus to the grasslands? I totally agree however that humans are the virus of the planet. The only species to tap into the resources earth contains. Oil, Minerals, Chemicals. No other life form does this on the scale that we do. Therefore we are the virus of planet earth and unless we evolve to the stage where we prevent its destruction we are defineately 'a cancer of this planet'

chris

One more thing. If we are the Cancer/Virus that kills the planet, who really dies? Humans or the planet? Viruses kill its host. Earth will remain.

jode

a shell of earth may remain, but not the living earth that was and to a much lesser extent still is.

Scott

"but not the living earth that was and to a much lesser extent still is."

Pure silliness. When is the last time a virus feed the hungry, clothered the poor, healed the sickl. protected elderly, produced art, music and general intervention? Wacko comes to mind here.

jode

the last time is now, this human virus. If someone wants to discuss this subject without name calling and other derogatory comments, feel free. Anyone else had a similar revelation?

chris

My last post i mentioned quill. I meant krill. Everyone who talks on this subject has valid points. I agree with most of them. I just want to point out one thing. I consider humans a 'higher' form of virus to the planet. With the ability to harvest what we destroy. The ability to care for lesser able 'viruses' such as the poor with the hope that they too may bring productivity into our viral ways. Helping the poor is nothing more than feeling sorry for them, or hoping that if we ever get to the point of starvation the healthy will feed us. There is motivation in helping others. This idea that we are a virus has some truth to it. However, a virus doesn't have the ability to realize it will go extinct if it continues on its path. Therefore humans cannot be a virus. Like a virus in many ways, humans are not a virus. To the planet earth yes. I say this in the fact that we cannot replace what we take from the earth. We can recycle, but once the oil, coal and as well as gold, diamonds and other monetary valuables are taken, whats left? Once it is all pulled from the earth, what will happen? Humans will once again be cast back into the animal kingdom. Smarter still than all, but without technology and resources. Using only the renewable resources the earth provides as every other living thing does on this planet. Humans aren't a virus in the same context as a virus. A virus is more like a poison. A virus does not even contain living cells. It acts in the same way a poison works. it takes over resources need for us to live. But it does not replenish them. Humans may cut down trees, but we replant them and wait for regrowth. We farm our food. We grow our livestock and poultry. Fish hatcheries, although fishing can be viewed as a viral activity. But overall humans cannot be viewed as a virus of the planet unless we rape the earth. Humans are working to coexsist with the earth. This is evident in the global warming scandal. People do care about the host. Viruses don't. Therefore humans are not a virus. Or maybe a caring virus. lol no wonder this is a debate.

smarter than all of you combined

any idiot who thinks they're a virus deserves to be shot in the face. nature is simply survival of the fittest. earth is lucky that humans are the fittest to rule and some even have "compassion" and "emotions" which grants us empathy for nature's current status. it may be "us" who tainted it, but hopefully not the "us" of tomorrow. humans are better defined as a cancer. we belong here, unlike a virus, but we aren't doing the job we were meant to do or just aren't doing it properly. hopefully the next generations that follow afterwards aren't as brazenly stupid as all of you, and actually do something about it instead of sit behind their computer and claim we are so low that we need to be compared to something as finite as a virus.

Drew

I'm not sure virus is the correct word. I think parasite would be a better way of explaining humans in this way. Viruses are not living organisms, they require a host to survive.

Peter

Yeah but we to require a host to survive. Earth is our host. Everyone is discussing the concept of a virus as something bad. Whoever said being a virus was a bad thing? Humans. That is because as a species we are afraid of death. Why are we so afraid of death when it is as neccessary an natural as life. A virus plays a role to eat away at its host until it kills it. Maybe that is our role. To eat away at, Or to overpopulate and consume every renewable resource until we kill ourselves. Earth too may die. But it is still a natural process. Maybe our purpose in life is to be part of a virus. Its a more interesting purpose than anything else right?

Andrew

Life. We have all received its introduction. Coagulated into form from mr sperm, ultra-competitively fighting our way into mrs egg. we made it ! into the womb. feeding and feeding off our 'host mother'. Birth ! light ! sounds ! smell ! foood !! fooood ! then we enter the social realm, school, knowledge, interactions with other competitors. hmmm, we find we must learn the 'laws', employ strategy, logic, reason, tactics, etc.. in order to receive the 'most' out of life over others. we are indeed brilliantly complex in these endevours. increadibly cunning. we are bound to our attractions and we're lured and flung and driven and pulled and drawn and sucked in, most naturally to the opposite sex. until we've found the right one ! yes !! love ! it must be love ! i waaant to make love to you !!!! so the cycle continues....

I'm humiliated whenever i touch on the awareness of this, or reflect on human purpose, philosophy, etc.. and a sense of guilt presents itself. guilt?! for.. for being alive !!? for living !?? What is this self-awareness we have lol, how we can reflect and pull ourselves up, or even contemplate our nature.

We are in SUCH INTERESTING TIMES at the moment. mankinds hunger for growth has swept the world-over and come back to bite him in the ass, and we realise, "Shit, we are destroying ourselves. Are we nothing more than a virus?"

The mere presence of this awareness that we hold, or ponder, is fascinating.
Are we a 'virus' becoming altruistic to its host (earth) ?
i wonder what'll happen....

John

I don't like this more than anyone that reads this.. But, for me and how i see it. The way i think we're a virus, is because of overpopulation, we got no natural enemy equal to our intelligence to keep us at bay, and thanks to our laws even though still, there are a lot of humans dieing every day, there is always one or two that gives birth to one or two babies, which will grow up and have their own.

Just think about it, we are number one on the food chain. We kill to feed our hunger and the more people in the world there are, i would find it hard to be able to feed the mouth of these people, we even have problem feeding most of the people in Africa and those that really need it. While i am sitting here writing this, i see what i think myself is the truth, and i frown.

I've just reached my early 20s, and i still can see how hard animals have it, and with us here disturbing their habitat with our overpopulation, i start to feel pity, not just on myself, but that what i am become a part of. I am not suicidal, i try to find new ways of figuring out the truth, and if it was so, that we came from a comet in outer space, i start feeling more like a guest on this planet than being number one on the food-chain.

To make my answer to the virus question, i'd say. We're a "virus" not something bad. But a virus that takes time to be lethal, but i know for a fact that we are also the cure. We just have to start to actually want to do something about it, i do not know what will be there in the future. But i hope we can figure out some good ways to save not just ourselves, but our neighbors and ofcourse the planet.

I don't really think people understand the consequences of global warming, as it's the beginning, the very start of what we've done to deserve the name virus.

I don't want to say i'm right, you can call me whatever you want. But untill we have done anything "good". We are a virus.

regards.

al

does it matter? are we not just adding to the pool of unanswered questions? What is a virus? Is it anything? Just because we label everything it doesnt mean we understand them. How can claim knowledge of a virus through the study of a person you have never met and if you had met them would it mean anything? Maybe knowledge is a lie, maybe science is the largest religion and slowly is expand, destroying all other religion with false theories that prove the others wrong. People make these quotes from science books and others make similar quotes drom the bible. Nothing can be trusted not even your own thoughts, they are in a language that others thought of, created from nothing. Everything is nothing if I put a bullet in my skull would anything change? Would the world that surrounds me melt into nothingness? You say our brains make us who we are, have you seen your brain? Do you know if its real? Can you yourself be sure knowledge comes from the brain? Can you really justify your every move on something you will never see only ever proven by x rays, can you say for sure a x ray machine does not print out the same image over and over. Somebody else said we can decide what we do, we can catch a bus or walk we do things that have been labeled and explained by people we never met and most of the time never even heard of, did these people ever excist?. In other words igronance is bliss, so very very bliss.

joel

john...
we dont need to be scared of what we dont understand. (i know you didnt say that by the way)
and i know where you are getting at.
but i think humans should learn from all these things, anything they can get their hands on. we should all learn about plants, water, fire, wind, mountains, anything really... and see the beauty in these things. Love is funny to me, i mean it could make us do anything... and what is love? a sexual desire to want to mate with the opposite sex?.... or in some cases with the same. To me love is like the universe, its there and i will never figure it out.. doesnt mean i wont try. my point is, (and im saying this to all mankind who is reading this) the presidents, kings etc... shouldnt be afraid of change... we should try to make an effort of going towards it though, because the way we are living is not to our full potential.
even if this is nothing, we should try to make it the most important nothing.

John

Well yes life is the biggest thing you can ever do but life is bigger than you and people should be allowed to be afraid of what ever they want to be whether they are a child or a king and which president is afraid of change? They only have a few years to change everything they can. And who is not living to their potential, potential is not a fate we choose to take it is who we are, it is a word created to justify a lack or high of desire whilst coninsiding with skills we have obtained. Would you truely live every day with content if everything was nothing, I wouldnt and you miss understand my use of nothing. To a normal person the peices to make a car are nothing to drive with but when put together they make an item that is driven everyday, to the first humans nothing had names or knowen uses so everything was nothing. Through time we named everything and discovered its uses but if we hadnt bother everything would still be nothing.

Anthony James Falez

Note: you must read "Posted by: al | September 05, 2008 at 04:31 AM" to gain a better understanding of what I am about to write.

While I read through all the comments I seemed to be in accord with the majority until I reached the post by Al. His post is the most accurate overall. AT THE MOMENT, we DO share the same qualities of a virus, although you have to remember time is RELEVANT! Time is a unit of measurement, THOUGHT into existence by mankind, to determine change and difference.

My thoughts do slightly differ from Al's. First, I believe our own thoughts can be trusted, at least some of them, because of our ability to reason by comparing and reflecting. Furthermore, I would have to conclude that memory is one of our utmost valuable assests.

Taking into mind the current state of our world and how fucked up it is (excuse my language) we have to assume we took a step in the "NOT RIGHT" direction, considering NOTHING is wrong, nor right, IT JUST IS, sometime (SOMEWHERE) ago. This could be ONE simple misstep, or a MILLION complex missteps compiled ontop of eachother, but we can be sure something is NOT RIGHT.

First, KNOWLEDGE is an ACCUMULATION of ELABORATIONS spawning from a SINGLE thought. Therefore almost all knowledge MUST BE DISCREDITED. For example, the telephone game (where you sit in a circle and whisper something in the ear to the person on your left. The message is almost guaranteed to be misinterpreted and misunderstood along the way.)

SCIENCE was our great MISTAKE. Science IS the biggest and most praised RELIGION of all time. Science itself can be deemed a VIRUS. It expands, destroying all other religions (SYSTEMS OF BELIEF) with theories that prove them wrong. An additional problem is that science radiates immense appeal, for we do desire to understand one another and science is a language anybody can understand. Aside from this, we have been CONDITIONED to knowing only this way of life.

Second, if we were to halt scientific study and technological advancements most people would view this as a negative thing. They view our accomplishments as progress, which they are, yet they fail to realize we are progressing in a NOT RIGHT direction.

Like knowledge, evolution is an ACCUMULATION of EXPERIENCES built upon one another. So, assuming we fell off course a long time ago, whenever that was, we must have been "advancing" in the NOT RIGHT direction since.

As I stated before, science has generated mass appeal and a cult following. Luckily we were given another EXTREMELY valuable asset: HOPE. Considering we will never have any idea whatsoever of when we actually misstepped off course, we would have to take THOUSANDS of steps backwards to assure we have avoided whatever "DEVELOPMENT" that was NOT RIGHT.

My best guess as to a solution would be SPIRITUALITY. I believe pursuing spirituality as a whole, (yes, the ENTIRE world,) FULL-TIME, would be the best attempt at achieving COMPLETE HARMONY. That is our sole purpose, is it not?

Although, I can be quoted claiming that it is not OUR responsibility to determine and induce self-purpose. Mankind has an obsession with imposing its own purposes on itself and I believe this wasn't never meant to be. Nevertheless, COMPLETE HARMONY would be MY choice of purpose.

Side Note: I wrote this with dear interest and concern for the world and its population. I have put a lot of thought into this as it has been a subject that has always interested me. I do not consider my thoughts any truer than yours or his. I eventually plan to write a book on this subject providing a solution to this world's madness. I would love to carry on the conversation if anybody is interested!

Anthony James Falez

..............whoops I forgot to mention a few things:

You have to give a little to get a little. Sometimes we have to go backwards before can advance forward. Sometimes we'll have to make sacrifices for the better of all things.

Usually solutions are simple. Because they lay at our feet we usually overlook them. Much too often we assume things are complicated!

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